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Ralph de Chesney
Alice Maminot
John de Chesney
Alice de Chesney
(Abt 1165-Bef 1225)


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Geoffrey de Say Lord of West Greenwich

Alice de Chesney

  • Born: Abt 1165, Newtimber, cuckfield, Sussex, England
  • Marriage: Geoffrey de Say Lord of West Greenwich in 1175-1180
  • Died: Bef 1225

bullet  Noted events in her life were:

• Background Information. 1262
The lands of Ralph de Chesney passed to his son Ralph and grandson John, who was living in 1147, but the three sons of John dying without issue Streat and his other manors came to his daughter Alice and by marriage to Geoffrey son of William de Say. Alice died before 1199, and her husband in 1214, when his lands were inherited by their son Geoffrey, who died in 1230. William de Say, his son, died seised of the manor in 1272, and was succeeded by his son William, who died in 1295. His son and grandson, both named Geoffrey, died respectively in 1322 and 1359, the latter leaving an elder son William.

~A History of the County of Sussex, Vol. VII, pp. 113-115

• Background Information. From Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Say :

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

1- On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].

2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

Alice married Geoffrey de Say Lord of West Greenwich, son of William de Say Lord de Saye and Beatrix de Mandeville, in 1175-1180. (Geoffrey de Say Lord of West Greenwich was born After 1135 & before 1144 in England and died between 1212 and 1214 in West Greenwich, Kent, England 141.)

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